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Now that was a FUN mailing list...

From the Onelist/EGroups home page:

TK-421's Undies is about one of the greatest mysteries of the Star Wars universe: What kind of undies are Imperial stormtroopers issued and actually wear as their regulation underwear?

The list is named after TK-421, a key character in the original STAR WARS movie - STAR WARS, A NEW HOPE In the Death Star sequence, he is one of two stormtroopers who were left to guard the Millennium Falcon, and then lured into a trap, knocked out cold and then stripped down to their undies by Luke Skywalker and his accomplice Han Solo, who then used their uniforms to pass themselves off as Imperial military personnel.

But what about those undies? What do those guys look like in their skivvies? We want to know: NOTHING SHOULD BE HIDDEN FROM US! The movie version doesn't provide a clue, and the many web sites which describe Imperial uniforms and equipment in painstaking details are strangely silent on the matter. We have decided to set up this list to fill that gap.

Upon registration, you will be asked to give your opinion about the question to which the list is devoted. Those answers will then be archived in a special section. All types of answers are welcome: well-informed, humorous, or simply your best bet. We only ask that you remain within the boundaries of good taste and decency.

Topics for discussion on the list itself: basically, military basics in the Imperial armed forces, but we also welcome contributions about what actually took place in and around the Millennium Falcon on that fateful day, as well as the aftermath of those memorable events. We would like to fill in the details of the story. We are particularly concerned about the fate of our hero : TK-421!

PS This list is not in any way connected to the TK-421 fan club. But it is part of an effort made to set up a TK-421 MEMORIAL INSTITUTE, supporting goons victimized by fictional heroes.

Hi!

Thank you for requesting membership in the TK-421 Undies List.

As per list requirement (see description), you must provide a description (as short or as detailed as you wish) of TK-421's underwear in order to gain admittance. That description will then be posted on the list. That description may aim at making the guy look ridiculous, or hot, or it can be purely factual. But basically, this is a fun-list.

Your listowner

PMcA

Greetings!

My name is Peter McAffery (pronounce like McAffrey - only the spelling is different) and today I'm taking over as listowner from the founder of this list, my buddy Tom. Tom intends to remain as a subscriber, but he asked me to take care of the operation in his stead, because of my outstanding qualifications.

You know what? Today, we actually doubled our membership! For months there were only three of us (four at some point, but the guy - another Peter - had to quit. And today, lo and behold: we received three applications! With the prospective members having met the necessary requirements, I had no choice but to induct them in our select club - something which I do with absolute delight!

OK, we've got an important issue to discuss here and I can't wait to start! Please let's not be formal. Call me Pete or McAff, or even Doc if you want, for I am a Ph.D. in Underwear Studies. But don't mention it. That makes me blush. -)

Professor Peter McAffery, Ph. D. (Under. Stud.)

The first person to join our ranks today is a person (a lady?) calling her(?)self GRAND ADMIRAL MARCIA, aka Luv Mafia. As for her answer to the question which fascinates the learned world ever since the first STAR WARS episode has hit the big screen, here it is. It is QUITE REMARKABLE.

Because stormtroopers and other Imperials present a hard, cold, efficient front; showing little emotion and being all manly and strong and silent, I can only imagine them wearing women's underwear. I believe that a significant portion of Imperials wear satin and lace panties, stockings and suspenders under their uniforms. Because their position involves suppressing their natures that are typically considered feminine, they secretly yearn for a way to balance the rigid masculinity in their lives and cross-dressing under their uniform is the only way they can do it.

I give you full permission to kick me for that. :)

Luv Mafia.

Keeper of Wes Janson's buttcheeks and the SSD design

My apologies to Grand Admiral Marcia. A search of publicly available information confirms that she is INDEED a feminine person - from the land of Down Under!

Welcome to your - ... sir!

Peter McAffery, Ph. D. (Under. Stud.)

The second person to join our ranks today - also a lady - is Blitzen von Terra Nord. Please read the expression of her thoughts with the utmost attention, for her post is quite interesting.

PMcA Ph.D. (Under.Stud.)

Oh, hello. Actually when you say 'stormtrooper undies' I immediately picture nice clean-cut muscular dudes in tightie whities. Can't visualize anything else. I mean, they kind of look like that on the *outside*, too, you know? So it stands to reason. So I'm going with "plain white cotton BVDs".

-- Blitzen
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

Dear Sir,

I am sure that you will not mind if I take the liberty to make some highly relevant comments on your excellent post of today!

After all everybody remains free to comment on anything and, whereas no one else can hope to emulate me in competence and knowledge on such subjects, I hope that the rest of us will do the same and make comments of their own.

Now, let me say first that I find your hypothesis ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!

Unfortunately, it doesn't hold water.

It is certainly true that a number of male members of the Imperial armed forces must have suffered from the Ed Wood Syndrome. The contrary would be surprising, for men suffering from that syndrome are commonly found in the armed forces of all nations (and, I would guess, planets as well as galactic empires, republics and the like). However, even when their absolute numbers are impressed, servicemen exhibiting that curious syndrome can never be more than a comparatively tiny minority. The evidence that we have clearly points out to the fact that the vast majority of His Imperial Majesty's soldiers, sailors and (we suppose) Stormtroopers did in fact wear male undies.

Most respectfully,

Professor Peter McAffery, Ph.D. (Under.Stud.)

Dear Blitzen,

You are UNDOUBTEDLY RIGHT : those undies MUST be white and tightie, and something that they already look on the outside (as you remark so well!)

As for the guys themselves...

Muscular? Certainly! Clean-cut? Without a shadow of a doubt! Nice? - perhaps.... (depends on your definition of the word, I guess...)

For the rest, however, your description leaves me somewhat unsatisfied. I wish for me. Since you see them so clearly in your mind's eye (a mystical gift which I envy you), could you be more specific? Plain BVDS are a more complex thing than you seem to realize. They may include a TOP PART in addition to the bottom part, and each piece can come in a variety of different types. Could you be more specific?...

Finally. Cotton? I don't think so. Most likely some super high-tec fabric of the future, eminently suited to underwear use and of which we have no idea. Probably unusable and with extraordinary moisture absorbent properties.

I hope that you don't mind the criticism...

Professor Peter McAffery Ph.D. (Under. Stud.)

The third person to join our ranks today is a man or a woman (I dunno) by the name of Redone. I am sure that you will agree with me that this person's post attests that its author is a scholar of the second highest level of competence (for we all agree that there could be only one underwear scholar of THE highest degree of competence on this list and it's ME). Please read on.

Professor Peter McAffery Ph. D. (Under.Stud.)
> > Welcome to the list devoted to the UNDERWEAR of one of science
> fiction greatest heroes - stormtrooper TK421!
> > According to regulations, in order to gain admittance to the list,
> you must first e-mail me your response to the following question :
> what did TK421 wear as underwear underneath his nifty uniform?

Oh, that's easy - the same as all other stormies. Single size white briefs with "Min.oborony" printed on them. ;) Later when he was hospitalised for concussion he got hospital underwear with the print "Minzdrav".

-Redone
(P.S. These words are in Russian and mean "ministry of defense" and "ministry of health". Empires have a habit or marking their property.)

Dear Redone,

Let me first tell you once more how pleased and impressed I am with your post! It is truly remarkable - especially the concluding remark, with which I couldn't agree more. Democracies are completely different from totalitarian and imperial states in that respect (as in many others). I can vouch for it, for, in my younger days, I have spent some time in the US Navy. But more on that at another time...

For the time being, I have a few questions for you...

1) Why Russian?
2) Did stormies only wear briefs or did they wear some undershirt too?
3) Was there any difference between the underwear issued to the guy by the military or the underwear issued to him when he got to the hospital? Or is it merely that some of the shorts belonged to the military and the others of the Health ministry?
4) Finally. Why do you say "single size"? I think that I know the answer, but I'd like to hear it from YOU. (As Uncle Sam used to say : I NEED YOU!)

Yours truly,

McAff

Hello. Delighted to be here.

petermcaffery@hotmail.com wrote:


>
> You know what : today, we actually doubled our membership!
>
> For months there were only three of us (four at some
> point, but the
> guy - another Peter - had to quit. And today lo and behold
> : we
> received three applications!

I looked through ALL (200 or so) groups at Onelist that came up under "Imperial"! Your introductory blurb was so gut-splittingly funny that I shared it with the Sith Chicks list. I didn't know Redone joined but GAMarcia said she was going to. We are all girls who would be *delighted* to discuss men's underwear with you! (Within the bounds of discretion and good taste, of COURSE.)

I didn't even share the direct link. So GAM and Redone must have come over here and searched... right?

> And the prospective members having
> met the necessary requirements,

You mean, having *opinions*? Yeah, we have lots of those!

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

petermcaffery@hotmail.com wrote:

> As for the guys themselves...
>
> Muscular? Certainly!
> Clean-cut? Without a shadow of a doubt!

Well, just look at 'em. They're all so delicious. Haven't seen an Imperial I didn't like, except for maybe Admiral Motti and I'll bet the little attitude adjustment improved even him. All the rest vary from 7-11 on a scale of ten.

(Just call me Mrs. Piett.)

Oh, and that "You Rebel scum!" guy wasn't bad, either.

>
> Nice? - perhaps.... (depends on your definition of the
> word, I
> guess...)

Right. My definition might be a little different from the usual. IMO the word can take modifiers.

"Nice and... " etc.

Nice and ruthless. Nice and manly. Nice and overbearing (in a pleasant sort of way).

> specific? Plain BVDS are a more complex thing than you seem
> to
> realize. They may include a TOP PART in addition to the
> bottom part,

Um, didn't think of that. Yer right, there's probably a top part. And I admit the necessity of wearing it for purely practical reasons under one's uniform. But it's not the sexiest concept in the world.

>
> Finally. Cotton? I don't think so.

*blush*

Oops.

Okay, "natural fiber" of some sort, unlike offizier-undies, which are undoubtedly made from one of the many silk-knockoffs with which Star Wars people are clothed. Ref:

Gemweb

this is a fine, silk-like thread that can be woven into extremely smooth cloth. (VOF)

Koolach Silk

this beautiful fabric was used by Winter to bribe the starport master at Kala'uun Starport, when Rogue Squadron tried to capture Firith Olan during the search for the Eidolon. (XWBT)

Ottegan Silk

this wondrous fabric gives off a distinctive, pungent smell when burned. (IJ)

Ramordian Silk

this wondrously smooth fabric is used to make expensive bedsheets. (VOF)

Rodian Flame Silk

this beautiful material is very expensive. (SWJ9)

Satina

this is a fine, silky fabric. (SWJ8)

Shimmersilk

a stylish fabric used for women's clothing. (HSE)

Synsilk

a fabric used for bedclothes. (LCM)

Thermal cape

a poncho made from metallic foil and spider silk, it keeps the wearer's body heat inside. They are often called T-capes. (SME, COJ)

Vine-silk

a soft fabric manufactured in the jungle domes of Belsavis. It is extremely expensive, due to its single origin location. (COJ)

Web-silk

a fine, Hapan fabric favored by the royal family of Hapes.

(SA)

> Most likely some super high-tec
> fabric of the future, eminently suited to underwear use
> and of
> which we have no idea.

Lycra? I hate the stuff. It would have to be some *super* high-tech Star Wars fabric, but I'd probably still hate it on principle. Have you EVER worn nylons in your life? (Please answer No.)

>
> I hope that you don't mind the criticism...
>

Just kidding around!

--

Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

> > You know what : today, we actually doubled our membership!

You can thank Blitzen for that. She recommended us.

Luv Mafia.

Keeper of Wes Janson's buttcheeks and the SSD design

While it's probably not really practicable for stormtroopers or those wearing armour or in very active duty, do you think its possible that some indoor-working Imperials go commando from time to time? I've got a mate in the Army Reserves and he does the no-undie thing every now and then.

Luv Mafia.

Keeper of Wes Janson's buttcheeks and the SSD design

I’d love to! - but we don’t have a page...

I’ll tell you how and why we started this. Tom and I, we have developed a deep sympathy for one very particular type of fictional characters.

Those are the soldiers or uniformed men belonging in the ill-defined category of “guards” who are knocked out cold (or worse) and then stripped down to their undies by so-called heroes for no other reason than the heroes’ need to take their uniforms to perform their (often dubious) heroic deeds. (Between us : who really cares about Princess Leia? -) Her hairdos are about as abominable as those of her mother in THE PHANTOM MENACE...)

We like underdogs and we sympathize with victims, and those poor guys happen to be the ultimate victimized underdogs. For one thing, there are the victims of the most heinous form of antisocial behaviour. Think of it. If I need a suit, all that I have to do (according to Hollywood) is to ambush a guy in a suit about my size, knock him unconscious and then take his suit. Morally repulsive, isn’t it? -)

Those characters are also the victims of the clichés of heroic fiction, which require that they be portrayed as not too bright, goonish and VERY expendable. The so-called good guys can do whatever they want with them. Anything goes - they’re just fair game!

Finally, more often than not, they just come and go. A typical situation. James Bond needs a security guard’s uniform. First news you get : a security guard’s uniform is on its way. Small problem : there’s a guy in it... That problem is quickly solved. The rent-a-cop barely has the time to turn his head before he’s hit on the back on his head, or a gun is pressed against the nape of his neck, or a moist hand clamps on his mouth. In a matter of a second or two, he’s gone, taken out of sight (behind a closed door or a bunch of crates), one way or another (forcibly pulled away, dragged unconscious, or at gunpoint). A few minutes (i.e. one frame) later, James Bond is back into the open, all dressed up in his victim’s uniform.

And what about the rightful owner of those nifty clothes? Usually, they don’t even bother to tell you. (Indeed, those parts tend to be so purely FUNCTIONAL that they are generally played by extras who are not even named in the credits! ) At the most, you’ll get a quick glimpse of the poor dude lying on the floor, half-naked, gagged and all-trussed-up in his skivvies. Is he okay? Will he recover? Will he lose his job? We dunno, because his fate simply doesn’t matter. As I said, he is expendable!!!

We chose TK421 as a case study because he is the prime example of what we had in mind. He even has a name (of sorts...) to relate to! Besides, he is highly visible and so popular that there he already has at least one fansite devoted to him. But we felt that the site didn’t go far enough. We needed to discuss him in greater detail - and the underwear is the ideal starting point for that because, when you come to think of it, this is a character in STAR WARS whose sole “raison-d’etre” is to be stripped of his uniform...

So far, we haven’t had much success with our list. One guy came and went.

Another woman is there (from Germany, I think) but she keeps very quiet.

Your coming today will greatly help us to kick-start it - we hope!

Pete

PS We also own/moderate another list devoted to this “stolen uniforms” thing in general. To our surprise, it is quite popular, especially among gay men. We have discovered - to our shock and amazement - that there are actually guys who would like to do that sort of things to other men - or even have other guys do it to THEM. Shocking, isn’t it? -)

> indoor-working Imperials go commando from time to time? I've got a mate in
> the Army Reserves and he does the no-undie thing every now and then.

You mean, freeballing? I'm sure that goes on a lot. In fact, I've seen it. There's a whole thrill attached to it. -) But that lacks class, IMO.

Pete

> > > You know what : today, we actually doubled our membership!

> You can thank Blitzen for that. She recommended us.

A THOUSAND THANKS TO BLITZEN VON TERRA NORD IT IS - AS WELL AS TO THE REST OF YOU!

We were feeling lonely here...

Pete

(and I'm sure that I could sign : Pete AND Tom!)

> >ambush a guy in a suit about my size, knock him unconscious and then take
> >his suit. Morally repulsive, isn't it? -)
>
> Never really considered it that way, but now you point it out...

Let it happen to you once, and you'll see the point! -)

But, in fact, that sort of things rarely happens to ladies in the movies. Victims are 99.9+% male. VERY UNFAIR, don't you think?

> >We chose TK421 as a case study because he is the prime example of what we
> >had in mind.
>
> Did you know that the guy who says "TK421, why aren't you at your post?
> TK421, do you copy" is now playing the principal on Heartbreak High?

No I didn't. But what I always wanted to know is who the guys who play the part of TK421 and his luckless companion were and what ever happened of them. Do you know? For one thing, I always wondered whether they were Americans or British, for, as you certainly know, the production included a strong British component.

Pete

--- In TK421sUndies@egroups.com, Blitzen <blitzen@w...> wrote:

> Lycra? I hate the stuff. It would have to be some *super*
> high-tech Star Wars fabric, but I'd probably still hate it
> on principle. Have you EVER worn nylons in your life?
> (Please answer No.)

The answer is a resounding : NO!!!

(and not only to please you!)

Pete

(and, I'm a 100% certain, Tom as well!)

Blitzen wrote:

> I didn't even share the direct link. So GAM and Redone must
> have come over here and searched... right?

Right. Couldn't resist after your post, Blitzen. (*still laughing*)

> Well, just look at 'em. They're all so delicious. Haven't
> seen an Imperial I didn't like, except for maybe Admiral
> Motti and I'll bet the little attitude adjustment improved
> even him.

Add Ozzel to the list. But after Lord Vader took care of him, I suppose his attitude improved as well.

-Red

"Maul halten und weiter dienen!"

Redone wrote:

> Well, just look at 'em. They're all so delicious. Haven't
> seen an Imperial I didn't like, except for maybe Admiral
> Motti and I'll bet the little attitude adjustment improved
> even him.

Add Ozzel to the list. But after Lord Vader took care of him, I suppose
his attitude improved as well.

Oh, yes. Um... true. Thank you.

--

Blitzen (Mrs. Piett)

At 11:16 2/08/00 +0000, you wrote:

>Let it happen to you once, and you'll see the point! -)

You were mugged for your uniform?

>But, in fact, that sort of things rarely happens to ladies in the
>movies. Victims are 99.9+% male. VERY UNFAIR, don't you think?

I guess that's probably because most of the heroes/villains doing the mugging are also male, and would fit into male garments. James Bond mugging a lady so he can be inconspicuous in her floral pink dress would not really work IMHO. :)

Funny you should mention that. I'm not sure if its a SW thing, but back when I did SW roleplaying, mugging passersby for their clothing was a very regular occurrence. *sorry!*

Luv Mafia.

petermcaffery@hotmail.com wrote:

> > Mara Jade, though not exactly Imperial officer, but
> someone close
> to the
> > most important figure in the Empire, is a Russian
> beauty. Okay, to
> be exact,
> > not perhaps Russian, but of a small Finno-Ugric people
> living in the
> > territory of Russia.

How do you know that? Is there an actress who plays her, and I've never heard of it?

>
> BTW, do you know where I could find some sets of authentic
> military Russian underwear?...

www.sovietski.com I *think* has had long johns and such before. I searched the site for 'underwear' and got nothing. It's kind of pricey and faddish but they've got the coolest stuff on there! You can buy a complete cosmonaut outfit for, like, $3000 if that's what turns you on...

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

> deeds. (Between us : who really cares about Princess Leia?
> -)

I knew I was going to like Han Solo (if not before) when he said, "Better her than me!"

>
> And what about the rightful owner of those nifty clothes?
> Usually, they
> don’t even bother to tell you. (Indeed, those parts tend
> to be so purely
> FUNCTIONAL that they are generally played by extras who
> are not even named
> in the credits! ) At the most, you’ll get a quick glimpse
> of the poor dude
> lying on the floor, half-naked, gagged and all-trussed-up
> in his skivvies.
> Is he okay? Will he recover? Will he lose his job?

*chews nails*

>
> We chose TK421 as a case study because he is the prime
> example of what we
> had in mind. He even has a name (of sorts...) to relate
> to! Besides, he is
> highly visible and so popular that there he already has at
> least one
> fansite devoted to him.

Where is it? I searched a little bit on Yahoo, and found various mentions of the famous phrase but no specific fan site. I agree, he needs one...

>
> PS We also own/moderate another list devoted to this
> “stolen uniforms” thing in general. To our surprise, it is quite popular,
> especially among
> gay men. We have discovered - to our shock and amazement -
> that there are
> actually guys who would like to do that sort of things to
> other men - or
> even have other guys do it to THEM. Shocking, isn’t it? -)

The sort of thing I'd walk a mile to avoid. (But not too surprising-- what you called 'gay men' are the only group at present who are allowed to devote whole lists to the wearing of Nazi uniforms, and get away with it!)

--

Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

"Brensgrrl" on the Sith Chicks list said she KNEW what kind of undies Stormtroopers have, and when I asked her, she said the "Essential Guide to Characters" says they wear a "black, two-piece, temperature-control body glove." She says that *is* the underwear. I wouldn't tend to agree, but I haven't much experience of body gloves; are they normally worn with nothing else beneath?

I seem to recall something about that in the Visual Dictionary as well, but I don't own it so I can't check.

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

> > > not perhaps Russian, but of a small Finno-Ugric people
> > living in the
> > territory of Russia.
>
> How do you know that? Is there an actress who plays her,
> and I've never heard of it?

Actually, I wrote it.

Force whispered, I suppose. I saw a pic of her and at once thought of the long-legged Russian spies on Bond movies. Besides, as far back as I can remember, Russian women have always dyed their hair with henna, so there are many redheads among them. Also, I've been told there's two naturally redheaded peoples - the Irish and the Udmurts (that's the Finno-Ugric people). Somehow she does not correspond to my image of the Irish. But that is subjective. Feel free to disagree.

Has she ever been in the movies? Don't know. I've only seen OT once, so I may have overlooked her.

-R

> Has she ever been in the movies? Don't know. I've only seen OT once, so I
> may have overlooked her.
>

Want to check her filmography? It's short, but there is one. Check the INTERNET MOVIE DATABASE - THE source on movies and TV shows on the Web. Here is the address of her page. Her name is Heidi Shannon :

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Shannon,+Heidi

I don't know. I don't claim any special knowledge about Irish things (I leave that to Peter, who is SO proud of his background!) but both the name Shannon and the first name Mara sound Celtic to my ears...

Tom

> > How do you know that? Is there an actress who plays her,
> > and I've never heard of it?
>
> Actually, I wrote it.

As in, fanfic? I want to see that...

> Finno-Ugric people). Somehow she does not correspond to my image of the Irish. But that
> is subjective. Feel free to disagree.

Actually that sounds very reasonable to me. My vague image of Irish is "jolly and hot-tempered", and of Russian is "passionate yet mysterious, opening up only to close friends, and highly-disciplined", which would be MJ perfectly.

> Want to check her filmography? It's short, but there is one. Check
> the INTERNET MOVIE DATABASE - THE source on movies and TV shows
> on the Web. Here is the address of her page. Her name is Heidi Shannon :

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Shannon,+Heidi

I looked; that says she's credited only with the *voice* of the character on the video game. Heidi Shannon might look like anything!

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

Hi! Here is Peter's buddy, Tom.

Your friend is probably right. At least this is what I think. Peter and I, we had discussions about that in the past. He thinks that stormtroopers wore undies. I don't. Underwear, as we know it, are a fairly recent invention and they may eventually disappear. Actually, I believe that, in the not too distant future, people will stop wearing them altogether underneath certain types of reasonably thick and close-fitting clothes if those are designed to fulfill the function of both outerwear and bodywear.

The body-glove that your friend mentioned is actually there for everyone to see. Look at any picture of a stormtrooper. All that is not white armour is black fabric - that's your bodyglove! I think it likely that said bodyglove is outerwear AND bodywear combined. If anything were to be worn underneath, it would probably have to be close-fitting and scanty.

This being said, I'm equally convinced that all Imperial military personnel IN UNIFORM (as opposed to armour) are wearing some sort of undies underneath the uniform. For my idea of what some of that stuff could look like, check post 1 in the archives.

Tom

> Your friend is probably right. At least this is what I think. Peter
> and I we had discussions about that in the past. He thinks that
> stormtroopers were undies. I don't. Underwear, as we know it, are
> a fairly recent invention

But German men wore underwear which made the Romans giggle, and God commanded the Hebrew priests to wear knee-length undies.

> The body-glove that your friend mentioned is actually there for
> everyone to see. Look at any picture of a stormtrooper. All that is
> not white armour is black fabric - that's your bodyglove!

*of course* (light bulb goes on) I didn't associate "what you see in the chinks" with what Brensgrrl mentioned. Got it now.

BUT that rather confirms me that they'd wear something beneath that. That seems too much like "first outer layer", and for practicality's sake, you'd need something that could be washed more frequently. Undies, IOW.

> This being said, I'm equally convinced that all Imperial military
> personnel IN UNIFORM (as opposed to armour) are wearing some
> sort of undies underneath the uniform.

Uh, oh, my brain just went away, and I think I'll find it in the Admiral's suite. See y'all later.

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

--- In TK421sUndies@egroups.com, Blitzen <blitzen@w...> wrote:

> www.sovietski.com I *think* has had long johns and such
> before. I searched the site for 'underwear' and got
> nothing. It's kind of pricey and faddish but they've got
> the coolest stuff on there! You can buy a complete
> cosmonaut outfit for, like, $3000 if that's what turns you
> on...
>

Thanks for the info! I checked the site, and, like you, I couldn't find anything. But I'm sure that they can get much more than what's posted there and, if you make a special request, they'd probably able to find what you're looking for.

Anyway thanks for the address. I've bookmarked it.

Tom

> You were mugged for your uniform?
>

No, not really. But I was depantsed a few times (does it count?) but that was for fun (mostly).

My days in the service were rather hot - or cool, depending on your point of view. The one incident I remember the most is actually associated with an impression of COLD WATER. It was in Rome, at 3 in the morning after a very hot day, and I was swimming in the Fountain of Trevi, clad only in my white cotton skivvies, with about a dozen of Uncle Sam's favorite nephews, all of them similarly attired, swimming all around of me. There a few marines, but most were Navy. AND WE HAD SUCH A GREAT TIME THAT I COULDN'T DESCRIBE IT! (we were all dead drunk, natuerlich!)

You should have seen the faces of the carabinieri who fished us out of that rococo pond... They looked so shocked that I wouldn't be surprised if one of them actually called the pope to tell him that Attila the Hun was back in town.

All of the uniforms (including I.D. and even the MONEY) were accounted for, except for one hat, which went missing (but that's easily replaced). But they didn't allow to put them back on. Instead, they took us to their police station AS IS, handcuffed, all dripping in our wet undies, and quite indecent, I'm afraid, for white cotton soaked wet can't hide much anymore...

That one ALMOST got us booted out of the Navy! -)

Pete

> they took us to their police station AS IS, handcuffed, all dripping
> in our wet undies, and quite indecent, I'm afraid, for white cotton
> soaked wet can't hide much anymore...

°_o <-- emoticon of what my eyes look like

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

>However, that's not the type, but the SINGLE SIZE I'm wondering
>about.
>Why would they be single size? Guys don't come in single size. There
>are big guys and small guys, skinny guys and others who are
>overweight. I'm sure that you see what I mean.

Considering the requirements to get into the Imp army would have been fairly stringent (height tests as Redone pointed out, very heavy fitness requirements, human) there probably would have not been much variation in the size of stormtroopers. Certainly they would have been different sizes, but probably not so different that one size underwear couldn't really fit all.

Luv Mafia.

Keeper of Wes Janson's buttcheeks and the SSD design

> That one ALMOST got us booted out of the Navy! -)

Oh, not again!

1) The Fountain of Trevi is baroque, not rococo.

2) Attila never went to Rome. He stopped a few miles from it. (Nor did he wear boxer shorts...)

3) I have heard the story told so often - and told in so many different ways - that I can't believe it any more. In one of his many other versions of the incident, Pete also claims that the people who were shocked by the scene were actually a bunch of NUNS passing by. Nuns are everywhere to be seen in Rome, but nuns walking the streets at three in the morning? COME ON!

In another version, he suggests that the pope actually watched the scene from his balcony in the Vatican - which, BTW, is nowhere near the Fountain of Trevi.

But, I'll grant you that that - as the Italians say - SI NON E VERO, E BEN TROVATO! (Free translation : if the story isn't true, at least it's a good one!)

My take on this : SOMETHING really happened, but those Navy boys were so drunk that no one quite remembers what it was!-)

Tom

Yeah, it's me, Tom, writing those messages from PETER's address. How come? Well, I am writing this on HIS computer. I'm visiting him tonight and he is standing right behind me. - FUMING!

Tom

I'm not so sure. Marines have size requirements too, and yet those guys have a choice of several different sizes of underwear, just like the rest of us. Let's not confuse minimal size (easy to achieve) with standard size (impossible to achieve). And there is a limit to what fitness can do to a human body. There are fit and muscular guys of all sizes.

The best proof is the movie itself. You just need to look at TK421 and his companion and you'll see that one is clearly taller and larger than the other (just like Han Solo vs Luke Skywalker).

I'm more impressed by the clowning argument. But that would mean that all those guys would look the same, wouldn't it?

Another possibility : stormtroopers are actually issued one-size-fits-all undies, but these are made of a special material of incredible elasticity - so that the same shorts would comfortably fit men with, say, waistsizes from 28 to 36. I know : that's science- fiction, but isn't SW science fiction too?

Peter

Heidi Shannon might be anything, that says nothing about Mara Jade. We don't confuse Ray Park with Darth Maul, do we? (at least most of us do not)

As for Mara sounding Celtic, well it is also an Estonian name (I remember a cow called Mara from my childhood; I also have a friend called Mara, she is NOT named after SW, because in the bliss of Soviet era we had no knowledge of SW), and it is a Sanskrit word meaning "death", and I'm sure it has other meanings in other languages.

-Red

Estonian? Now, I finally understand what the ee at the end of your address means! You're from Estonia...

Small wonder that, in your mind, evil empires tend to speak Russian!... To most people, the stormtroopers looked more like Nazis. (Actually, that's where the word comes from, if I'm not mistaken.) One thing that they have in common with Nazis is that, at least, they LOOK efficient - something that doesn't come so naturally to Russians... -)

Peter

So true. Heehee...

That's why I prefer imperials. ;)

> As for Mara sounding Celtic, well it is also an Estonian name (I remember a
> cow called Mara from my childhood; I also have a friend called Mara, she is
> NOT named after SW, because in the bliss of Soviet era we had no knowledge
> of SW), and it is a Sanskrit word meaning "death", and I'm sure it has other
> meanings in other languages.

Right. Ruth 1:20: And she said unto them, Call me not Naomi, call me Mara: for the Almighty hath dealt very bitterly with me.

> Small wonder that, in your mind, evil empires tend to speak
> Russian!... To most people, the stormtroopers looked more like Nazis.

Check IMDB on all the face card Imperials. Piett and Ozzel both played Hitler at some point in their lives; Ken Colley on the stage and it wasn't filmed (oh, but see http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks/piett/deepsigh.jpg), but Michael Sheard was Hitler on Indy III. And the others are almost as typecast. Captain Needa played Hitler's brother-in-law. That wasn't accidental, that was just more free imagery along with the boots and such. Even "The Empire" is obvious.

> (Actually, that's where the word comes from, if I'm not mistaken.)

Yep.

> One thing that they have in common with Nazis is that,
> at least, they LOOK efficient

There's a humor page circling the internet, which points out that Ben Kenobi was wrong about, "Only Imperial Stormtroopers would be so precise," because as the writer puts it, "Imperial Stormtroopers obviously couldn't hit a sidewalk with a bucket of paint."

But in the fan world it's a little more realistic, and the Rebel scum have about as much chance as they *really* would have. (Zilch)

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

Blitzen asked us for links.

Here is a good starter : the address of the TK421 site!

http://www.eou.edu/~triples/TK-421/photos.html

As you'll see, it's a great site! Our experience with it has been mixed, though. They announce an e-mail fan club, with an electronic badge, a newsletter. I joined enthusiastically, but never received anything. I wrote again and got a message from a lady telling me that the stuff would come soon. That was six months ago, and still no news!

> Of course that they do wear other types of uniforms! Did you think
> that they were born that way? -)))

> The white armor suit is their battle dress uniform. They also have a
> service uniform, and presumably a dress uniform as well. (I'm sure
> that they do have at least one. In the US Navy, as you certainly
> know, I had two : dress blues and dress whites. I looked very cute
> in both. -) )

Now. here is a link to a picture of a stormtrooper in his SERVICE uniform (doesn't he look Russian?) :

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/ccg/praji.jpg

Check that site. IMO, it's the best imperial uniform site on the web. But not a word about undies!

Cheers,

Pete

> Of course that they do wear other types of uniforms! Did you think
> that they were born that way? -)))

With clones (clowns, as you said), you can never know how they are born ;)

Seriously, remember the way they were herded to Death Star hangar bay for emperor's arrival (Vader's too, perhaps, but I don't remember that scene). IMHO it would have been an event to require dress uniform; but they wore armour. Although I know very little about military dress code, but that was obviously not a battle situation.

> In the US Navy, as you certainly
> know, I had two : dress blues and dress whites.

Nope, meesa not knowen anythin.

> I looked very cute
> in both. -) )

Now that's surely an interesting piece of information. :D
Does US Navy have dress undies to dress uniforms?

-R

>
> Exsqueeze me -- what is Jockey?

http://www.jockey.com/gallery/galleries/models/model%5Fmelance6%2Ejpg

> Now. here is a link to a picture of a stormtrooper in his SERVICE
> uniform (doesn't he look Russian?) :

> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/ccg/praji.jpg

WHICH guy is that again? Is that the one at the security station? I've forgotten.

Blitzen

Hullo, buddies! Here's PETER THE GREAT back on-line!

(I'm not talking of the "other" Peter the Great - the Russian one, much overrated, IMHO, but of The One And Only ME!)

--- In TK421sUndies@egroups.com, Redone <kaiv@h...> wrote:

> Seriously, remember the way they were herded to Death Star hangar
> bay for emperor's arrival (Vader's too, perhaps, but I don't remember
> that scene). IMHO it would have been an event to require dress
> uniform; but they wore armour. Although I know very little about
> military dress code, but that was obviously not a battle situation.

I hope that you won't mind me saying so, but you don't talk like someone who's been in the service, Ma'am!

The modern military, especially the Army, are in BDU most of the time. That doesn't mean that they're in their full-combat gear all that time. The BDU is the set of clothes which they wear with the combat gear, and which also includes the combat cap and the combat boots. Those are the "work clothes" most infantrymen, for instance, will wear most of the time.

(Service uniforms are the uniforms which you are supposed to wear in the office or such situations. In actual fact, more and more, the modern require of their men - enlisted, but officers too - that they show up in BDU most of the time. Dress uniforms are the serviceman's Sunday clothes. Spick and span.)

The stormtroopers "herded" to salute the emperor (as you say) are in fact being reviewed, and BDU WITH FULL-COMBAT GEAR are standard dress in such situations.

Or course, you can't really compare contemporary US (or Canuck) BDU and stormtrooper combat dress all the way. I suppose that stormtroopers don't show up dressed up in full armor at the office. But "at work", and especially in situations where there is the slightest chance of their coming in the line of fire, they'll be in full- combat and I think that the scene in SW qualifies.

(An event that would have required wearing a dress uniform would be, say, a ball at the imperial palace. Troops being reviewed can be in dress uniforms, too, but not anywhere near the theater of operations.)

Pete

--- In TK421sUndies@egroups.com, Redone <kaiv@h...> wrote:

> > In the US Navy, as you certainly
> > know, I had two : dress blues and dress whites.

Oh, really??? I can't believe that! Surely, you knew that sailor suits come in two basic colors - sparkling white and Navy blue...

>
> Nope, meesa not knowen anythin.
>
> > I looked very cute
> > in both. -) )
>
> Now that's surely an interesting piece of information. :D

A pity you don't live in the neighborhood... -) My uniform still fits me to a T, BTW.

> Does US Navy have dress undies to dress uniforms?

As a matter of fact, they do. I dunno about officers wearing shirt and tie (dress blues) or a tunic with buttoned collar (dress whites), but white crew-neck tee-shirts are actually part of the sailor's dress uniform itself. Many guys will wear one a good part of the time (I usually did, even in very hot temperatures, when most guys would go naked from the waist up) and you HAVE to wear it with your dress uniform (whites and blues) because your jumper has a largely open collar which makes the collar of the undershirt fully visible.

The tee-shirt doesn't have to be Navy issue, and in most cases it isn't, because most guys find civilian Tee-shirts more comfortable. But it must be all white, in shape, and an underwear type of Tee- shirt.

I understand that Tee-shirts were actually invented for the US Navy, back in the 1910s or 1920s. Their supplier at the time was a company by the name of Skivvies - and the name has stuck. To this day, skivvies in American naval slang for underwear.

I'm sure that the curiosity of a chaste young woman like you cannot possibly extend to the bottom part of a Navy boy's underwear. But if it does... don't hesitate to ask! Everything will be revealed to you. I may even have a couple of pixes of yours truly in his skivvies somewhere...

Pete

Hi, Pete.

> (I'm not talking of the "other" Peter the Great - the Russian one,
> much overrated, IMHO, but of The One And Only ME!)

Maybe you'd agree then that it has been a mistranslation? Pyotr Velikii might be translated as Peter the Huge, and he sure wasn't small.

> I hope that you won't mind me saying so, but you don't talk like
> someone who's been in the service, Ma'am!

Would be weird if I did. That's why I'm asking! And thanks for enlightening, I truly feel enlightened now. After all, who wants to die in ignorance. At least as far as I know, when Estonian army was started a few years back, they only had one type of uniform. I haven't any friends who are young enough to have served there, so I don't know if it has changed.

> I'm sure that the curiosity of a chaste young woman like you
> cannot possibly extend to the bottom part of a Navy boy's
> underwear.

You might be surprised...

Chaste young women like me with no interests in this area would not join an undies list. Since you are the listowner, I suppose you want to tell us about undies, so go ahead! It's a learning experience for me as well, getting to know all those words.

> Everything will be
> revealed to you. I may even have a couple of pixes of yours truly in
> his skivvies somewhere...

.......

Well?

-Red

<< Chaste young women like me with no interests in this area would not join an undies list. >>

Amen to that! I hate being seen as a "chaste young woman", when I definitely know otherwise.

Liz

Well, it's me who is chastized...-)

How could I resist an invitation worded in such terms?

I'll put it in a nutshell : American sailors, at least those who are REAL NAVY, wouldn't want to be caught dead wearing anything but a pair of full-cut white cotton boxer shorts. I always wore those when I was in the service. I still do now that I'm in civilian life.

Regardless of what some of you ladies may think, this is the BEST TYPE OF UNDERSHORTS EVER DEVISED FOR THE MALES OF THE HUMAN SPECIES! They're tasteful, good-looking, functional and very comfy.

Contrary to what many people believe, you don't HAVE to wear white boxer shorts in the US Navy. At least not any more. There used to be a time when you had to. You were issued some special kind of white boxers (old fashioned yoke-front type, with snaps) which you had to wear all the time, and there was little you could do about that (except during liberties) because that's what you would be wearing at bedtime in front of your buddies. But that was before my time and now guys are left free (more or less) to wear whatever they want.

The only restriction is that you have to wear white with the dress whites, because the fabric which they currently use for the uniforms is such that color might show through. Normally it doesn't (the trousers are partly lined on the inside), but it could.

I remember once when a guy - a commander! - accidentally fell in the water (no, not the Fountain of Trevi; he was simply stepping out of a boat, slipped and fell). He was a good swimmer and they had no problem fishing him out of the water (getting hold of his floating uniform cap proved to be more difficult, as I remember). But he was wearing his dress whites and, after he had removed his tunic, all soaked in, all eyes were fastened on the rather cute (and skimpy) pair of apple-green jockey briefs which he was wearing underneath his dress trousers, now practically transparent. Nobody dared say anything and he just stood there unaware of the fact that he was making an exhibition of himself in his undies...

To go back to white boxer shorts, as I said, they're not longer mandatory (or regulation) but the Navy is definitely partial to them. That's what you are issued when you join and are sent to boot camp (except that they have replaced the yoke-fronts with the elastic band type). After that, guys choose whatever they want but, as I said, those who are REAL NAVY stick to the tradition. I did - for the reasons which I gave you. I easily accommodated myself to that type of underwear and wouldn't change for a million bucks.

(The only thing which didn't come naturally to me skivvieswise is that, in the Navy, you're supposed to wear the Tee-shirt well- tucked inside the waistband of your shorts, while I had a tendency to let the shirt flap over the shorts. I had to be reminded of the proper manner of dress a number of times.)

As previously mentioned, some pixes of yours truly in his skivvies (taken on board ship a few years back) DO exist. It's just a matter of digging them up and then I'll ask my good friend Tom to have them scanned so that we could post them for you. Tom already has a small selection of pixes of yours truly IN UNIFORM which he had accepted to post later tonight.

Yours truly,

Pete

Let it be said once and for all : if Patrick McAffery's grown-up, and supposedly mature, son wants to make a fool of himself by explaining to all and sundry that he wears his undershirts untucked in his underpants, that's up to him.

Does he want to have pictures of himself clad only in his BVDs posted on the Internet? Why not! He is old enough to make his own adult decisions.

BUT LET HIM NOT COUNT ON HIS BEST FRIEND TO UPLOAD THOSE PICTURES FOR HIM!!!

If Pete's e-mail system doesn't allow him to post pixes himself, that's just too bad for him! -)

Tom

> You guys complained that nobody ever gives a thought what really happened to
> TK421 when he was relieved of his armour. So do you have any theory or story or
> whatever about it? Wouldja share?
>

It may not look like it, but it's a very complicated question that you're asking there and a much wider question too, for it involves a surprisingly large number of characters : in addition to the two stormtroopers, think of Han, Luke, Chewbacca, and Kenobi, to say nothing of the two technicians.

What did really transpire in the Millennium Falcon on that day? I have read wild theories about that, such as people claiming as a fact that the four imperials had been mercilessly killed in the process. I don't believe that. I think that they were merely incapacitated. But how was it done? Muscle power or the Force?

Others have taken a skeptical stance. They claim that we don't even know which one of the two goons was TK421, and that the name of the other one will forever remain a mystery.

That isn't so. In fact, as I propose to show in the website which I hope to set up, God (and Blitzen) helping, a close examination of the available material, and especially the first SW movie as shot as well the novelization of the script which came out at about the same time as the film, will yield PROBABLE answers to all of those questions.

Only the undies remain a mystery.... -) (but I think that you can count on Pete for that!)

Tom

Greetings!

I'm at work but things are quiet around here, so I guess I can take a short break.

> > navarone@s... wrote:
> >
> > > It may not look like it, but it's a very complicated question that
> > > you're asking there and a much wider question too, for it involves
> > > a surprisingly large number of characters : in addition to the two
> > > stormtroopers, think of Han, Luke, Chewbacca, and Kenobi, to say
> > > nothing of the two technicians.

To which Redone responded :

> >
> > Their story is known and written.

Well, if the full story of the two technicians is known and has been written, I would really appreciate if you could forward me a copy!

I realize that there are tons of fanfic stories written about the main characters in SW, but I'm not aware of any piece filling up the gaps of the TK-421 story as told in the movie version.

So far, I know of only one piece of fanfic dealing with TK-421, but it is a major one and I certainly intend to link it to our site if the authors are agreeable. Unfortunately, it is set some time AFTER the Millennium Falcon incident and the version of the incident on which it is based doesn't hold water, IMHO.

> > What really confuses me is that novelisation says the stormtrooper
> who was not
> > at his post was THX-1138 (maybe he was the second cousin of the
> battle droid
> > 1138 from TPM?)
> >
> > Or was TK-421 the other one, and for some reason in the movie the
> officer called
> > TK-421 while in the book he called his companion?
>
> Well, for a story that is "known and written", this one seems to
> include a certain margin of uncertainty. -)
>
> Tom is more competent than I am about those things and he'll be
> able to tell you more when he comes back from work tonight.
>

Basically, here is the situation. There are a number of versions of the story, foremost among them :

1) Script draft 1 (I don't have it. I've seen it. Does anyone know where I could find it?)

2) Script draft 2 (Got it from the web. SUBSTANTIALLY different from the familiar story)

3) Script draft 3 (Got it from the web. A bit different from SW, but we're getting there).

4) Script draft 4 (Got it from the web. That's the shooting script.)

5) The SW movie AS SHOT.

6) The novelization.

There is no doubt in my mind that the authoritative version is the SW movie as shot. That's the one which tells the events AS THEY ACTUALLY HAPPENED (as we all know -) ). But it contains a number of loose ends to tie up and gaps to fill. I propose to use the other versions (especially 4 and 6) to do so. Version 6 (the novel) is actually based on 4. Apparently (and that makes lots of sense if you are in marketing), they were busy writing the novel even as the movie was being shot. There are minor differences between 4 and 5, and that's normal.

I've got to run now. See ya tonight.

Tom

> > So far, I know of only one piece of fanfic dealing with
> > TK-421, but
> > it is a major one and I certainly intend to link it to our
> > site
>
> Where is that? I'd like to read it.

Got the address somewhere. I'll dig it up. It's a story on the "novel of which you are the hero" pattern. YK421 ends up in a rebel POW camp, knocks out a guard and (you guess it!) tries to make a break for it dressed in his victim's uniform! -)

> You guys complained that nobody ever gives a thought what really happened
> to TK421 when he was relieved of his armour. So do you have any theory or
> story or whatever about it? Wouldja share?

I'm seeing story, Red, from YOU. Is one running around in your fertile little brain? Let's see it! We know you can do it and I'd love to read it!

When Pete and Tom have their new webpage they'll *have* to have a fanfic section...

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

Blitzen wrote:

> *squick*
>
> I simply can't go there! Despite my, um, involvement in the
> DVEB.

*Evil cackle*
My involvement with this beloved pile of droid parts could also happen in a very, very dark place because *I don't want to know*!!!

> I'm seeing story, Red, from YOU. Is one running around in
> your fertile little brain? Let's see it! We know you can
> do it and I'd love to read it!

I do not do stormtroopers, undies or not. I do sith lords. I cannot imagine what military life is like. Dark side meditations on the other hand... Hehehe. Weesa thinken about it, but yousa thinken too, 'kay?

> When Pete and Tom have their new webpage they'll *have* to
> have a fanfic section...

Yep. Hereby I'm sending a hint, hint your way, boys!

Although, on second thought, that could and should as much be a part of your imperial page, Blitzen.

-Red aka Darth Heehee from K.u.K Gottes Hauptquartier

Redone wrote:

> I cannot imagine what military life is like. Dark side
> meditations on the other hand... Hehehe. Weesa thinken
> about it, but yousa thinken too, 'kay?
>

Yes, I know. It occurred to me. I went there.

>
> > When Pete and Tom have their new webpage they'll *have*
> to have a fanfic section...
>
> Yep. Hereby I'm sending a hint, hint your way, boys!
>
> Although, on second thought, that could and should as much
> be a part of your imperial page, Blitzen.

Actually I did a stormtrooper page after discussing it, then Geocities was having problems when I tried to upload it and I forgot to try again later. The page was a bit bare. I just needed a category so I could link to the upcoming Peter / Tom page WHICH I HAVEN'T SEEN HIDE NOR HAIR OF YET... (hint)

>
> -Red aka Darth Heehee from K.u.K Gottes Hauptquartier

What's K.u.K.?

--
Blitzen
http://www.geocities.com/imperialchicks
Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"
Me: "Yes, please!"

> > -Red aka Darth Heehee from K.u.K Gottes Hauptquartier
>
> What's K.u.K.?
>

That means KAISERLICHE UND KOENIGLICHE - German for : Imperial and Royal.

That phrase was coined for the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. The Austro-Hungarian monarch was an emperor in Austria and a king in Hungary, hence the phrase. Everything official in A-H was labelled K.u.K.

Yours truly,

Peter McAffery

Nifty! I'd never heard that before.

BTW don't you hate "Imperial Royal Guard"? It bugs me. Imperial is just Imperial, there's nothing Royal about Palpy. It's like they added Royal just for more syllables or something.

Whoops, I need an Imperial Guard page, don't I?

Blitzen

>
> What's K.u.K.?
>

You haven't read Svejk?

Kaiserliche und Königliche

[Redone]

I'm thinking of using that picture for the cover page of our web site. What do you think?

I know : it's not SW. But what a striking introduction for our theme!!! I hope you'll agree... -)

For once, I'm the one who go the wild idea. Pete actually tried to talk me out of it. He thinks you might find the pix a little too.. weird. I beg to disagree. After all it comes from a mainstream movie. PG-13 at the most!

(Quiz : which movie is it???)

Tom

(Quiz : which movie is it???)

Guns of Navarone? (Since you just mentioned it... otherwise there are WAY too many David Niven movies on IMDB to sort through!)

Ah, yes, *THAT uniform* that every single major Hollywood star simply HAS to get into sooner or later. As a "good guy", of course, who has stolen some poor slob's duds.

I've always meant to make a list of all the biggies who've been faux-SS officers at one time or other. Right now Michael Douglas and Gregory Peck come to mind... and *gak* I suddenly have to split, so bye bye!

Blitzen

Blitzen wrote:

> (Quiz : which movie is it???)
> Guns of Navarone? (Since you just mentioned it... otherwise there
> are WAY too many David Niven movies on IMDB to sort through!)

No, it isn't from Guns of Navarone. It's a scene from Please Don't Eat the Daisies and the person standing in front of David Niven is actually Doris Day impersonating a Nazi officer all tied in his underwear. Stunning, isn't it?

Few people are truly aware of the full range of that amazing woman's acting abilities. So who knows, for instance, that she is a natural for Nazi and Prussian parts? After all, her real name is Doris von Kappelhoff...

Peter von McAfferhoff, K. u. K. esq.

> At any rate, Peter has evidently found the button in question. He
> will show restraint, I am sure.

You guys are too funny! You're, like, *best friends*, right?

> No problem there. I just dawned on me that Piett is one of your
> favorite characters in SW.

To make that statement strictly true, you need to remove the words "one of" and the "s" at the end of "character".

I've always had kind of a Thing about Ken Colley.

> How do you pronounce that name? Is it
> pronounced like... Pete?

Nope! Two syllables.

Blitzen
(I feel lost without my siggy, but I've been using this address for business too and I don't need the sexually-charged *dead giveaway* at the end of every message!)

> Eat the Daisies and the person standing in front of David Niven is
> actually Doris Day impersonating a Nazi officer all tied in his
> underwear. Stunning, isn't it?

You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.

Okay, which movie is it *really*?

(But I DID go back and stare the picture again just in case you weren't joking...)

> natural for Nazi and Prussian parts? After all, her real name is
> Doris von Kappelhoff...
>
> Peter von McAfferhoff, K. u. K. esq.

Blitzen von Terra Nord

***No, it isn't from Guns of Navarone. It's a scene from Please
Don't Eat the Daisies and the person standing in front of David
Niven is actually Doris Day impersonating a Nazi officer all tied in
his underwear. Stunning, isn't it?***
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.

What a dilemma you put me in! I want so much to please that I'm tempted to tell you that I'm joking. But, on the other hand, that would be lying and mom taught me never to tell lies. What a dilemma! What should I do???

*** Okay, which movie is it *really*? ***

Please Don't Eat the Daisies. I told you. But don't look for it in there, because, for whatever reason, they decided to delete the scene. Too daring perhaps...-)

***(But I DID go back and stare the picture again just in case you weren't joking...)***

and that just confirmed what I said... of you... what a bunch of doubting Thomases!

***natural for Nazi and Prussian parts? After all, her real name is Doris von Kappelhoff...
Peter von McAfferhoff, K. u. K. esq.
Blitzen von Terra Nord***

By what I can see, we're all Germans here!

Your favorite teddy-bear,

Peter David McAffery

You're confusing things, Pete.

It's actually from THE GUNS OF NAVARONE.

Here is what happened. Shortly after completing PLEASE DON'T EAT THE DAISIES (with Doris Day), David Niven went on shooting THE GUNS OF NAVARONE. One day, when they were shooting somewhere in a studio near London, they ran into a problem. They had found the perfect actor to play the role of the sadistic SS officer. His name was George Mikell. Only problem : he was a shy guy and didn't want to be seen in his underwear!!!

Fortunately, Doris Day was visiting that day. Dropping in at the studio to say hello to her old friend Dave. "I always wanted to play that kind that of scene!" "Really?" said Mr. Niven, somewhat disbelievingly. "Would you REALLY?" then asked J. Lee Thompson, the director, who, but a few minutes earlier, had seen himself confronted to the possibility of having to cancel the whole project. "Sure, I will!" she said.

And she did it! What a trouper...

Her only condition is that we wouldn't pose in some underwear of her own choice. (Odd, isn't it? Women are usually so indifferent to matters of dress...) That's the reason why she isn't dressed the same way as the others.

Unbelievable, isn't it?

The funny thing is that this little stratagem had no effect whatsoever as far as Mr. Mikell's modesty and reputation are concerned. Ms Day's heroic deed went uncredited, so that, to this (doris) day, everybody is convinced that it's HIM who is in that scene!

But Pete and I, we know better, don't we? -)

Tom

Good news!

We've got the home page of our site operational!

Unfortunately, it is also very incomplete. So far all we got is...

1) A picture of a stormtrooper. (Actually, it's not even that. What we've got is the picture of HAN SOLO dressed in a stolen stormtrooper's uniform! TK-421's?)

2) A list of great links, which will prove particularly useful to young people looking for a challenging life, great adventure and opportunities to get an education.

3) A short explanation of those links, in TK-421's own words! Actually, that bit of text will only be the last paragraph of our introduction, but the rest is still to be written.

The URL is the same as the one previously given by Blitzen :

http://www.geocities.com/tk421sundies/

Please check and enjoy. The background of the page is dark blue...

Cute!

Tom

Subject:
[TK421sUndies] WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is the [deleted] MARINE CORPS doing on a list of the four top military organizations on earth?!?!?!?

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!

Those jerks should be at the bottom of the pile, number 9999999999999999999++++, FAR, FAR BEHIND the HAITIAN PRESIDENTIAL GUARD, but on your [deleted] list, THEY'RE AT THE TOP!!!!!!

AHEAD OF US!!!???!!!!!

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???

Explanations needed, required, DEMANDED!!!

Okay, everybody please excuse Peter. He's going to be offline for a few minutes. He was walking off muttering to himself, when suddenly he was jumped by Blitzen and next thing he knew he was off in a quiet, private spot, NOT relieved of his uniform (to his disappointment) but getting his mouth washed out with soap instead. He didn't enjoy it at all. And he's going to be more circumspect next time...

Blitzen *taps whip against boot*

Peter McAffery ill-advisedly wrote:

What is the ****ing MARINE CORPS doing on a list of the four top military
organizations on earth?!?!?!?
I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!

You need to leave room in the upper right hand corner for the Geocities ad. And get a new page title... but a nice start!

When do we get the fanfic?

Blitzen

(*kisses Pete's cute little rosy cheekies, to make sure there's no hard feelings*)

> What is the XXX MARINE CORPS doing on a list of the four top military
> organizations on earth?!?!?!?
>
> I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!
>
> Those jerks should be at the bottom of the pile, number
> 9999999999999999999++++, FAR, FAR BEHIND the HAITIAN PRESIDENTIAL GUARD, but
> on your XXX list, THEY'RE AT THE TOP!!!!!!
>

Blitzen is right, Pete. You should watch your tongue. For the rest... what can I say? It's not really my fault... I mean. It's more his choice than mine. His - I mean TK421's.

I figured that stormtroopers are sort of... Marines. Aren't they? I mean. They're military, big guys with big guns, talking tough (if not very intelligibly), travelling on board ships, but no sailors. Hell no! Add to the fact that they look great, but it's all in the outfit, and not much substance upstairs, and the resemblance between stormtroopers and Marines becomes UNMISTAKABLE!

BTW, you should check their link. You'll notice that they're the only ones without a -mil web address. Actually, they DO have a -mil web address, except than when you get there, it doesn't make any sense. A picture of a forest ablaze. What's the connection? Well, there is one. I think that they want to feature the latest issue of their mag which itself is featuring their efforts to stop the forest fires currently raging in the midwest. (Try to picture that : a thousand leathernecks, all lined up, facing a huge forest fire and bravely trying to stop it by p****g on it!) Now, where do you get from there? You do as I did and you start clicking on things, until you get something else, which is hardly more relevant. True, there's a JOIN THE USMC! button somewhere. But when you click on it, you only get more of the same s**t (I've got to watch my language here, 'cause *Big Sister* is watching! -) ).

It's so much like THEM!!! They do their very best to design something VERY CLEVER, and they just end up mixing things up and screw up the whole shebangbang... There is BIG problem for them in there. That stuff is so complicated that it's flying BILLIONS OF LIGHT YEARS above the heads of the hillbilly types they're so fond of and trying to attract like mad to replenish their ranks! SEMPER FI!!!! So I took pity on the poor slobs and, instead of the -mil address (home page), I gave them the address of another page, so that they can more easily find their way to the recruiting office.

Now, Blitzen, it's my turn to be kissed on my cheekies! -)

Tom

(it's Tom for Pete and most of humankind, Thomas for my father, and Tommy for my mom and aunts, and for Blitzen too!)

--- In TK421sUndies@egroups.com, Blitzen <blitzen@w...> wrote:

> I have GOT to see that movie again real soon. I love George
> Mikell! I loved Emerald and Sea Wolves. He was so CUTE in
> Navy whites... I loved him in The Great Escape. And in
> Password is Courage, there's a part where he's talking to a
> POW, and he leans over and says in this *totally* sexy
> voice, "Can you forget for a moment that I am a German?"
>
> I'm, like, YEAH baby, I sure can! Yeah, yeah, yeah! :-)
>

What? you know him? you actually NOTICED him in the movies? I mean. He's not a star, not by any means.

BTW, is he still around? The imdb page doesn't list anything with him in it after 1990 or so.

Also, I always thought that he was 1) of German origin and 2) living in the US. But it turns out that I may have been wrong on both counts. Apparently, the name MIKELL is English. Not very common, but well attested as English. Ditto. If he were German, he'd be Georg, not George.

Also, I recently found (on the web) a long and detailed interview with J. Lee Thompson, the film director, in which he talks about Mikell, indicating that, at the time when they made the movie, he was acting in a theater nearby. That must have been England, because that's where all they could do in studio was shot, including the escape scene and the Nazi undies fashion show. (The on location scenes were shot in Rhodes, which isn't far from where the imaginary island of Navarone would be located.)

To cut a long story short, Mikell would seem to be a BRITISH actor (note that most of stuff is either UK or UK-connected) specializing in German and other "foreign" parts.

I'm glad that you like THE GUNS because it's a GREAT movie! One of the best action movies ever, IMHO.

BTW The Doris Day story - we made it up... natuerlich!

Shamefully yours....

Tom

PS Walter Gottel (the "good" Nazi in TGON) was German, born in Bonn, if my memory serves me well - although I also found a short bio of his listing him as... Irish!

> thousand leathernecks, all lined up, facing a huge forest fire and
> bravely trying to stop it by p****g on it!)

You've heard the one from the Korean war about how everybody's rifles were frozen solid and the enemy was coming... and the commander yelled, "[Whiz] on 'em!"

"If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid."

> Now, Blitzen, it's my turn to be kissed on my cheekies! -)

Wait a minute-- do you think you can go *directly* to the cheekie-kissing part, *without* the tied up and whatever else I'm in the mood for part???

> (it's Tom for Pete and most of humankind, Thomas for my father,
> and Tommy for my mom and aunts, and for Blitzen too!)

Aunt Blitzen

> > POW, and he leans over and says in this *totally* sexy
> > voice, "Can you forget for a moment that I am a German?"
> >
> > I'm, like, YEAH baby, I sure can! Yeah, yeah, yeah! :-)
> >
> What? you know him? you actually NOTICED him in the movies? I
> mean. He's not a star, not by any means.

Right. "Typecast." Doesn't mean he isn't beautiful. Hey, just think if all us chicks liked the same kind of guy :-)

Yes, I noticed him years ago, when I didn't even have the Net and IMDB to help me track down my favorites. And I've been pursuing him ever since.

> counts. Apparently, the name MIKELL is English. Not very common,
> but well attested as English. Ditto. If he were German, he'd be
> Georg, not George.

And Ken Colley. 100% British.

> PS Walter Gottel

Gotell

Blitzen

***Right. "Typecast." Doesn't mean he isn't beautiful. Hey, just
think if all us chicks liked the same kind of guy :-) ***

Thank God, no! That would be awful. One of the problems with Hollywood is typecasting. Especially with the actresses. They all look the same!!! Not all women look the same - but American actresses tend to. Men less so - except in the soaps...

***Yes, I noticed him years ago, when I didn't even have the Net
and IMDB to help me track down my favorites. And I've been
pursuing him ever since. ***

Incredible! And I thought that I was the only one who noticed fine character actors in *small parts*! Often, they're much more interesting to watch than the so-called stars.

Do you think that we might find out more about that guy? Whether he is still alive? And, if he is, perhaps we might even get in touch with him! I'm sure he'd be pleased to learn that there are at least a few people who have noticed his good work.

One of my dreams is to actually get in touch with the guy who was in the stormtrooper suit as TK421... I'm sure that there is a way to find out who he was. Perhaps we might be surprised. It could be that, while George (the other George, Lucas) had Harrison and Mark all suited up, he just asked THEM to pose for that scene! That would be funny, wouldn't it?

*** So who IS that in the picture? It doesn't look like George
Mikell but he's kind of making a face so I can't tell. ***

The kind of face you'd make if you had a gag in your mouth! -) No, it's Mikell alright. For one thing, I don't see why they would have asked someone else to do it. Also, he's actually the one who looks the most like himself fully clothed! In addition to Gotell (Right spelling now! Do you have the crush on that one as well?), who is also in that scene, and in his undies too, there are four guy standing with their backs to the wall - Mikell, and three enlisted men. If you have paid attention to those guys' faces while fully clothed and then you take a look at the picture of them in their undies (I've got another one, with much greater detail, which I yet have to have scanned), you'll find it difficult to believe that those are the same men. But that's normal. That's partly due to the gag, and partly due to the fact that they're scantily clad, which changes a lot to a person's appearance. The gag is particularly important.

Tom

Looking good is an important part of the military. You remember our dress blues? Well, in actual fact, we rarely get to wear them. During good will tours, ceremonies, special occasions, such as when the ship gets back to its home port and everybody's there to welcome us. That's about all! While on shore leaves? Not that much. Not any more. Nowadays, more often than not, when servicemen are going back home to see their folks, they're in civvies. Sad.

> Mind you : the Marines
> are our brothers and we love them deeply.

That is something you should make clear on your page. :)

Okay. So I'm back from a few days of lurkdom and what do I find? Blitzen getting ready to tie Tom up etc.

*Red runs away screaming, then comes back in, eyes gleaming with curiosity, only to find that Aunt Blitzen is busy kissing cheekies...*

:)

As for Marcia's suggestion about military links -- just made me think that the glorious air forces of my country consist of probably one aircraft... lol.

With all this talk about making websites, I haven't been able to sleep the whole night, knowing that I have been allotted 10 Mb space for my own homepage ;) Gotta go back brooding again.

Gads! I just noticed my web mailer says "On a nice day [Tom]@sympatico.ca wrote:"

So, sympatico, how's your nice day been? Hope you all have your fair share of kenad päevad.

-Red
who has joined the ranks of working class once again :(

> Incredible! And I thought that I was the only one who noticed fine
> character actors in *small parts*! Often, they're much more
> interesting to watch than the so-called stars.

I'm a little more shallow... I only notice *cute* character actors.

> Do you think that we might find out more about that guy? Whether
> he is still alive? And, if he is, perhaps we might even get in touch
> with him! I'm sure he'd be pleased to learn that there are at least
> a few people who have noticed his good work.

Hey (pause to boast): I actually called Ken Colley's agent to ask them when his birthday was... I called London five times before I could find that out. Talked to a lady speaking *some* language very different from my kind of English... we just barely understood each other. So now IMDB lists KC's birthdate and it's because of me-- how exciting, what? And they told me he is 5'8"... which is just the same as me. "So what? My fictional character will just never wear high heels the rest of her life! Big deal!"

> The kind of face you'd make if you had a gag in your mouth! -)
> No, it's Mikell alright.

Typical. I *finally* get a picture of him and I don't even recognize him and don't like the picture (looking at his body's okay though).

> In addition to Gotell (Right
> spelling now! Do you have the crush on that one as well?)

*** NO ***

> undies (I've got another one, with much greater detail, which I yet
> have to have scanned),

Hurry up, puh-leeze!

Blitzen

> I wonder, if you compare stormtroopers with Marines
> (and from your description I can well see why you do
> so), what would be the SW equivalent for navy? The
> actual suicidal flyboys?

Well... the SW equivalent of the Navy is... the Imperial Navy, of course! The vast majority of the Imperial military personal that you see on starships and on the Death Star ARE Navy! That may seem surprising until you begin to reflect on the fact that starships are, first and foremost, SHIPS. (Ships "sailing" through space rather than on the sea, but there is no difference as to the TYPE of military unit that they are)

The one branch of the service that seems to have practically evaporated in the SW universe is the Air Force, based on the use of AIRCRAFTS. (As the name indicates, those are merely CRAFTS and not ships.) In the SW universe, the use of those would be limited to the atmosphere of each planet.

Even in our world, the status of the Air Force as an independent branch of the service is open to question. Originally (up to AFTER WW II), the USAF was nothing but the United States ARMY Air Corps. Both the USN and the USMC had their own "air forces", which they have retained. Navy pilots are among the very best (remember TOP GUNS?), in part because they are trained to operate from aircraft carriers.

Tom

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